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	<title>Comments on: Religions are Apps</title>
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	<link>http://roguepriest.net/2011/01/01/religions-are-apps/</link>
	<description>a life of adventure</description>
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		<title>By: The Religious Atheists &#171; Rogue Priest</title>
		<link>http://roguepriest.net/2011/01/01/religions-are-apps/#comment-5364</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Religious Atheists &#171; Rogue Priest]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2012 07:44:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://roguepriest.net/?p=96#comment-5364</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] This type of atheism always fascinates me. Most people&#8212;including most atheists&#8212;are only familiar with a compartmentalized type of atheism. The type where &#8220;God doesn&#8217;t exist&#8221; means &#8220;no point in worshipping God.&#8221; This is often a view of former Christians. Christianity treats faith as a pillar of religion. So if you don&#8217;t believe, religion has nothing for you. (But then, religions are like apps.) [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This type of atheism always fascinates me. Most people&#8212;including most atheists&#8212;are only familiar with a compartmentalized type of atheism. The type where &#8220;God doesn&#8217;t exist&#8221; means &#8220;no point in worshipping God.&#8221; This is often a view of former Christians. Christianity treats faith as a pillar of religion. So if you don&#8217;t believe, religion has nothing for you. (But then, religions are like apps.) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Opt-In Approach to Religion &#171; Rogue Priest</title>
		<link>http://roguepriest.net/2011/01/01/religions-are-apps/#comment-713</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Opt-In Approach to Religion &#171; Rogue Priest]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 May 2011 13:03:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://roguepriest.net/?p=96#comment-713</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] while back I wrote about how religion cannot be defined. There are so many types of religions, with so little in common, that no one definition does them [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] while back I wrote about how religion cannot be defined. There are so many types of religions, with so little in common, that no one definition does them [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Lilly &#124; Druid Journal</title>
		<link>http://roguepriest.net/2011/01/01/religions-are-apps/#comment-61</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Lilly &#124; Druid Journal]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2011 15:03:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://roguepriest.net/?p=96#comment-61</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I will definitely read the definition.  But the very fact that Geertz feels like he needs to take 35 pages to define &quot;religion&quot; indicates to me that he either misunderstands language, society, or both.  If he thinks he&#039;s defining the English word &quot;religion&quot;, he shouldn&#039;t take 35 pages to lay it out -- the concept simply isn&#039;t that complex, and as any linguist can tell you, words just don&#039;t have nice pat definitions with necessary and sufficient conditions attached; their meanings are clusters of related prototypical examples.  On the other hand, if he&#039;s describing a social construct that exists in the world, independent of the English word &quot;religion&quot;, then again, it should not take 35 pages to describe.  The US Constitution (which is itself an attempt to describe a social construct, and more complex than most) is only 4 pages.  Either way, Geertz would have done better to list out some examples of the kind of thing he was discussing, and then elaborated a theory about how these examples were similar or different.  He could have avoided this error if he knew some basic facts about language and semantics.  ...I guess it&#039;s obvious I feel strongly about this point :-) but it&#039;s disheartening to me that so many people, in academia and elsewhere, make simple errors like this when the basic facts have been known for a generation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will definitely read the definition.  But the very fact that Geertz feels like he needs to take 35 pages to define &#8220;religion&#8221; indicates to me that he either misunderstands language, society, or both.  If he thinks he&#8217;s defining the English word &#8220;religion&#8221;, he shouldn&#8217;t take 35 pages to lay it out &#8212; the concept simply isn&#8217;t that complex, and as any linguist can tell you, words just don&#8217;t have nice pat definitions with necessary and sufficient conditions attached; their meanings are clusters of related prototypical examples.  On the other hand, if he&#8217;s describing a social construct that exists in the world, independent of the English word &#8220;religion&#8221;, then again, it should not take 35 pages to describe.  The US Constitution (which is itself an attempt to describe a social construct, and more complex than most) is only 4 pages.  Either way, Geertz would have done better to list out some examples of the kind of thing he was discussing, and then elaborated a theory about how these examples were similar or different.  He could have avoided this error if he knew some basic facts about language and semantics.  &#8230;I guess it&#8217;s obvious I feel strongly about this point :-) but it&#8217;s disheartening to me that so many people, in academia and elsewhere, make simple errors like this when the basic facts have been known for a generation.</p>
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		<title>By: Faoladh</title>
		<link>http://roguepriest.net/2011/01/01/religions-are-apps/#comment-60</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Faoladh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jan 2011 23:56:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://roguepriest.net/?p=96#comment-60</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I apologize that I can&#039;t provide the full unpacking of that phrase here (again, it takes about 35 pages to fully unpack the concision in that sentence). I recommend reading the section of that book before making any judgments about technical issues regarding that definition.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I apologize that I can&#8217;t provide the full unpacking of that phrase here (again, it takes about 35 pages to fully unpack the concision in that sentence). I recommend reading the section of that book before making any judgments about technical issues regarding that definition.</p>
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		<title>By: Drew Jacob</title>
		<link>http://roguepriest.net/2011/01/01/religions-are-apps/#comment-59</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Drew Jacob]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jan 2011 21:16:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://roguepriest.net/?p=96#comment-59</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have to agree that it&#039;s still rooted in Christianity or at least theistic religion. I spoke with a Buddhist lama who explained that the gods are not real at all, only useful as symbols in meditation. No aura of factuality there.

The wording &quot;clothing these conceptions with... an aura of factuality&quot; also implies that the conceptions are false. In many cases that&#039;s unproven and, to some, it could be offensive.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to agree that it&#8217;s still rooted in Christianity or at least theistic religion. I spoke with a Buddhist lama who explained that the gods are not real at all, only useful as symbols in meditation. No aura of factuality there.</p>
<p>The wording &#8220;clothing these conceptions with&#8230; an aura of factuality&#8221; also implies that the conceptions are false. In many cases that&#8217;s unproven and, to some, it could be offensive.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Lilly &#124; Druid Journal</title>
		<link>http://roguepriest.net/2011/01/01/religions-are-apps/#comment-58</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Lilly &#124; Druid Journal]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jan 2011 15:39:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://roguepriest.net/?p=96#comment-58</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My fiancée &lt;a href=&quot;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Alison Shaffer&lt;/a&gt; has her degree in comparative religious studies, and recently did a lot of research into &lt;a href=&quot;http://wildhunt.org/blog/2010/10/guest-post-being-a-druid-is-good-for-society-says-uk-charity-commission.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the legal status of religion in the US and the UK,&lt;/a&gt; which she wrote about for the Wild Hunt.  I read her the definition of Geertz above, and she found it compelling, although personally I think it still owes too much to Christianity-as-prototype.  I think it applies poorly to pagan religions, for example, since it relies on a &#039;sense of factuality&#039; which seems to imply a difference between what&#039;s &#039;real&#039; and what&#039;s &#039;imaginary&#039;, a difference I&#039;m not sure is particularly relevant for pagan religion.  The definition also fails, I think, for Zen Buddhism, which explicitly rejects symbolism of any sort.

The core issue, again, is that Christianity is seen as the prototypical religion, and it is not a particularly representative example...  It&#039;s as if Europeans had lived for thousands of years with penguins as the prototypical example of a &#039;bird&#039;, and now were scrambling to extend their definition to accommodate wrens, eagles, and ravens.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My fiancée <a href="" rel="nofollow">Alison Shaffer</a> has her degree in comparative religious studies, and recently did a lot of research into <a href="http://wildhunt.org/blog/2010/10/guest-post-being-a-druid-is-good-for-society-says-uk-charity-commission.html" rel="nofollow">the legal status of religion in the US and the UK,</a> which she wrote about for the Wild Hunt.  I read her the definition of Geertz above, and she found it compelling, although personally I think it still owes too much to Christianity-as-prototype.  I think it applies poorly to pagan religions, for example, since it relies on a &#8216;sense of factuality&#8217; which seems to imply a difference between what&#8217;s &#8216;real&#8217; and what&#8217;s &#8216;imaginary&#8217;, a difference I&#8217;m not sure is particularly relevant for pagan religion.  The definition also fails, I think, for Zen Buddhism, which explicitly rejects symbolism of any sort.</p>
<p>The core issue, again, is that Christianity is seen as the prototypical religion, and it is not a particularly representative example&#8230;  It&#8217;s as if Europeans had lived for thousands of years with penguins as the prototypical example of a &#8216;bird&#8217;, and now were scrambling to extend their definition to accommodate wrens, eagles, and ravens.</p>
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		<title>By: Faoladh</title>
		<link>http://roguepriest.net/2011/01/01/religions-are-apps/#comment-57</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Faoladh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jan 2011 05:04:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://roguepriest.net/?p=96#comment-57</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[While possibly free speech would protect the majority of philosophies, remember that speech is much more legitimately proscribed in the US than religion is. With copyright and trademark law, state secrets, the ability of alleged authorities to occasionally prohibit some books from distribution (see Wilhelm Reich), inciting riot, and shouting fire in crowded theaters, speech is relatively closely circumscribed in the US. Contrarily, to advocate domestic terrorism (Operation Rescue), racial pogroms (the &quot;Creativity Movement&quot;), and the like are all protected religious expressions.

Obviously, I am not saying that it&#039;s a good idea to push the idea of domestic terrorism as an expression of faith, but it is a situation where the normal protections involving speech are at least partially circumscribed in a way that the protections involving religious expressions are not. There may also be issues with people whose legal rights are partially circumscribed (prisoners, for instance) should have access to writings regarding their philosophy (say, an atheist who subscribes to the beliefs of Scientific Materialism who wants access to books by Dawkins or on a particular subject), but are not guaranteed that access under speech could legitimately have it under religion. And yes, I do know that the New Atheists are pretty adamant about not being a &quot;religion&quot;, but that may be due to their intuitive sense of &quot;religion&quot; as Mr. Lilly presents it above - that is, that they see &quot;religion&quot; as &quot;like Christianity&quot; - and that they may come to perceive it more broadly if it is presented more concisely as a general rule than as a mapping of a prototype.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While possibly free speech would protect the majority of philosophies, remember that speech is much more legitimately proscribed in the US than religion is. With copyright and trademark law, state secrets, the ability of alleged authorities to occasionally prohibit some books from distribution (see Wilhelm Reich), inciting riot, and shouting fire in crowded theaters, speech is relatively closely circumscribed in the US. Contrarily, to advocate domestic terrorism (Operation Rescue), racial pogroms (the &#8220;Creativity Movement&#8221;), and the like are all protected religious expressions.</p>
<p>Obviously, I am not saying that it&#8217;s a good idea to push the idea of domestic terrorism as an expression of faith, but it is a situation where the normal protections involving speech are at least partially circumscribed in a way that the protections involving religious expressions are not. There may also be issues with people whose legal rights are partially circumscribed (prisoners, for instance) should have access to writings regarding their philosophy (say, an atheist who subscribes to the beliefs of Scientific Materialism who wants access to books by Dawkins or on a particular subject), but are not guaranteed that access under speech could legitimately have it under religion. And yes, I do know that the New Atheists are pretty adamant about not being a &#8220;religion&#8221;, but that may be due to their intuitive sense of &#8220;religion&#8221; as Mr. Lilly presents it above &#8211; that is, that they see &#8220;religion&#8221; as &#8220;like Christianity&#8221; &#8211; and that they may come to perceive it more broadly if it is presented more concisely as a general rule than as a mapping of a prototype.</p>
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		<title>By: Drew Jacob</title>
		<link>http://roguepriest.net/2011/01/01/religions-are-apps/#comment-56</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Drew Jacob]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jan 2011 04:44:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://roguepriest.net/?p=96#comment-56</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great points Faoladh. This is exactly why I favor the &quot;opt in&quot; approach rather than a global definition, but I hadn&#039;t thought about philosophies or lifestyles needing legal protection too. Do you think that they would be better covered by free speech rather than freedon of religion? Or is that insufficient?

Interesting stuff, thank you for your comments!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great points Faoladh. This is exactly why I favor the &#8220;opt in&#8221; approach rather than a global definition, but I hadn&#8217;t thought about philosophies or lifestyles needing legal protection too. Do you think that they would be better covered by free speech rather than freedon of religion? Or is that insufficient?</p>
<p>Interesting stuff, thank you for your comments!</p>
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		<title>By: Faoladh</title>
		<link>http://roguepriest.net/2011/01/01/religions-are-apps/#comment-55</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Faoladh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jan 2011 01:36:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://roguepriest.net/?p=96#comment-55</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I recommend reading the book to answer those questions. I don&#039;t claim to be an expert on the subject, only that I have read the book (once, a while back), that I was impressed as a layperson with the discussions there, and that legitimate experts have recommended the book and specifically this definition to me.

It is difficult to separate ideology from religion, so much so that it is difficult to say that they are actually different things. It is quite possible that the only real difference is in arbitrary categorization, resulting in a slightly differing social perception, so that, for instance, Leninism is an ideology, despite having rituals, hierarchy, scriptures, and many other trappings that we would normally consider religion, while LaVeyan Satanism is a religion, despite having, as you note, no real conception of the &quot;supernatural&quot; (I&#039;d argue that neither do most other religions, outside of Christianity, but that&#039;s splitting hairs in this context), and, in fact, being not much else than Ayn Rand&#039;s Objectivist philosophy with differing symbols and rituals.

As for why it is important to have a definition that encompasses all religions, we currently have, in the US, a small but increasingly vocal group of Dominionists who are making the claim that those things which are not Christianity, or at least related to Christianity such as Judaism, are not religions, and do not deserve equal protection under the Constitution (see, for instance, the &lt;a href=&quot;http://wildhunt.org/blog/2010/01/is-the-first-amendment-for-monotheists-only.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;WallBuilders amicus&lt;/a&gt; in McCollum v. California). Any definition which excludes one or more actual religions, then, is dangerous to members of minority religions in the US, since it could be used to support that Dominionist argument. In any case, are we to conclude that something which describes itself as a philosophy (Objectivism) has no standing for protection under the Constitution, but something which is substantially similar but describes itself as a religion (LaVeyan Satanism) does? Is it merely a matter of self-identification? What about those religions which consider themselves as &quot;not a religion, but a lifestyle&quot; (such as I&#039;ve heard the practitioners of some forms of evangelical Christianity say)? I say that we should use the narrowest definition which includes all things we conventionally describe as religions (and Geertz&#039;s definition above seems to fit that criterion), then let anything else that falls in with them be considered as well (eg Objectivism, Leninism, Scientific Materialism, and so on).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recommend reading the book to answer those questions. I don&#8217;t claim to be an expert on the subject, only that I have read the book (once, a while back), that I was impressed as a layperson with the discussions there, and that legitimate experts have recommended the book and specifically this definition to me.</p>
<p>It is difficult to separate ideology from religion, so much so that it is difficult to say that they are actually different things. It is quite possible that the only real difference is in arbitrary categorization, resulting in a slightly differing social perception, so that, for instance, Leninism is an ideology, despite having rituals, hierarchy, scriptures, and many other trappings that we would normally consider religion, while LaVeyan Satanism is a religion, despite having, as you note, no real conception of the &#8220;supernatural&#8221; (I&#8217;d argue that neither do most other religions, outside of Christianity, but that&#8217;s splitting hairs in this context), and, in fact, being not much else than Ayn Rand&#8217;s Objectivist philosophy with differing symbols and rituals.</p>
<p>As for why it is important to have a definition that encompasses all religions, we currently have, in the US, a small but increasingly vocal group of Dominionists who are making the claim that those things which are not Christianity, or at least related to Christianity such as Judaism, are not religions, and do not deserve equal protection under the Constitution (see, for instance, the <a href="http://wildhunt.org/blog/2010/01/is-the-first-amendment-for-monotheists-only.html" rel="nofollow">WallBuilders amicus</a> in McCollum v. California). Any definition which excludes one or more actual religions, then, is dangerous to members of minority religions in the US, since it could be used to support that Dominionist argument. In any case, are we to conclude that something which describes itself as a philosophy (Objectivism) has no standing for protection under the Constitution, but something which is substantially similar but describes itself as a religion (LaVeyan Satanism) does? Is it merely a matter of self-identification? What about those religions which consider themselves as &#8220;not a religion, but a lifestyle&#8221; (such as I&#8217;ve heard the practitioners of some forms of evangelical Christianity say)? I say that we should use the narrowest definition which includes all things we conventionally describe as religions (and Geertz&#8217;s definition above seems to fit that criterion), then let anything else that falls in with them be considered as well (eg Objectivism, Leninism, Scientific Materialism, and so on).</p>
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		<title>By: Drew Jacob</title>
		<link>http://roguepriest.net/2011/01/01/religions-are-apps/#comment-54</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Drew Jacob]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Jan 2011 18:05:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://roguepriest.net/?p=96#comment-54</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh that&#039;s a good one. I like that. You could lump non-religions under that definition too though, like political ideologies and secular humanism. Does he offer any explanation as to how they&#039;re different? Or is this really a definition of ideology itself, rather than religion?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh that&#8217;s a good one. I like that. You could lump non-religions under that definition too though, like political ideologies and secular humanism. Does he offer any explanation as to how they&#8217;re different? Or is this really a definition of ideology itself, rather than religion?</p>
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