Now I tell lies.
I didn’t used to be this way. I have vows to be ethical. There’s a lot of fine print with those but de facto it means I never lie. In fact, I’m one of those people who believes lying is always wrong—even white lies, even making other people feel better, even minor excuses like saying you’re busy instead of “I’d rather not come.”
But I can admit there’re exceptions.
If I had to lie to save someone’s life, I would. And… actually, that’s the only exception. It’s the only one I thought of for the 10 years I’ve been under vows.
Until now.
Don’t Judge Me
I meet a lot of new people and there are two questions I get asked a lot. As a matter of personal policy, I will never again provide honest answers to these two questions:
- How old are you?
- What’s your sign?
The only reason people ask you these questions is to judge you based on nothing. The querent inevitably has a right or wrong answer in their mind. They’re forming a hypothesis about you based on how young (or old) you are. They want to know if they can guess your good and bad qualities based on your sign (hint: no).
So from now on, I’m just lying.
If it’s an older person and they ask my age, I’ll make up one that sounds older. Their intention is to dismiss my travels as youthful angst and I’m going to make that harder for them.
(My stock answer till now has been, “Old enough,” but they just keep pressing for a number.)
Younger person? They don’t usually ask, but if they do I’ll say I’m younger.
If you want my zodiac sign it will be a different one every time. I won’t even keep track. Sometimes I might say my real one just to keep things interesting.
People seem to like Leo the best, so I’ll probably use that one a lot.
Comfort Zone
Of course, anyone who takes the time to read my work is going to figure out how old I am and what my true sign is. It’s not secret. I don’t mind my friends having personal information about me. Actually, I don’t even mind strangers having my personal information. Google can have my privacy; it’s their compensation for making my life way easier.
Does this stretch my vows? It’s hard to say. It doesn’t literally break the letter of any of them, but rules lawyering your spiritual vows is a bad idea. On the other hand, it cockblocks people’s unfair judgments.
In the end, it comes down to two things. It harms no one, and I feel alright about it. Your rogue priest is now a liar.
What do you think? Right? Wrong? And does anybody else have any routine lies?
I’m writing my first novella. It has magic spells, happy corn, sad farmers, and desperate fucking. Lúnasa Days.
Drew Jacob, Rogue Priest
September 3rd, 2012 at 8:27 am
I’m not sure why these two instances should be exempt, other than that they’re trivial. After all, it doesn’t hurt anyone to lie about why you missed their birthday party either, and arguably it hurts them less than being honest. A more hard-nosed advocate of truth-mongering might even posit that by lying about your age, you’re missing an opportunity to correct someone’s erroneous notions about age.
Also, do you save time by lying about your zodiac sign? It seems likely that people would make the same bogus inferences into your behavior regardless of what sign you gave them. So why not just give them the real one?
September 3rd, 2012 at 11:50 am
These are good points Trent.
On the first, I do feel it does harm when you lie to someone about why you miss an event or similar. The lie relates to how you perceive of them and how you relate to them. If it is discovered there will be a lessening of trust or respect.
This lie is told tongue-in-cheek to strangers I have no relationship with, and it’s about something that only pertains to me, not them. In the event that it is revealed (as it often is within days if I get to know someone as a real friend) the result seems to be they think it is funny or interesting, not insulting.
About the zodiac sign thing, I tend to cherry pick the kind of zodiac sign that will throw off their assumptions. If they are talking about how friendly and social I am I say I am a Virgo. If they’re talking about how studious and philosophic I am I say I am a Leo. Etc.
September 3rd, 2012 at 9:12 am
My mother was 101 (nearly 102) when she died last year. Up until she was 94, she would never tell her age (except to friends and family).
“It’s none of their business,” she would say. “People want to put you in a box.”
When she was 94, we took her to a baseball game in Seattle. Our friends we were with told a TV camera-person mom’s age. They wanted to interview her. They asked her age.
“Ninety-four,” she confessed.
Typical of my mother, she had to announce her age on television. That’s how her friends at the retirement home finally learned how old she was.
September 3rd, 2012 at 11:51 am
Hahaha I LOVE this Martha. Your mom had my kind of taste. I’m sorry for her passing and glad she lived such a long (and mysterious) life. Thanks for sharing this.
September 3rd, 2012 at 12:50 pm
Mysterious…hadn’t thought about it that way, but yes, that is one adjective among many that fit her.
I meant to say, too, that I like the idea of not telling people what zodiac sign we are as it leads to more assumptions by far than telling your age. Fun to throw them off a bit…
September 3rd, 2012 at 6:01 pm
Exactly!
September 3rd, 2012 at 9:50 am
Being a teacher, and a liberal, and a long haired man who lives in the south, I get asked those kinds of questions a lot–definitely the “how old are you” question and more likely the second one is whether I am a Republican or Democrat, or what Church I go to.
I never lie, but I ususally counter with a question for the same reasons you give–they already have a judgment in mind. I usually ask: how old do you THINK I am? What party do you BELIEVE I belong to? Then, I let them talk, sputter, backpeddle, etc. And, I almost never answer. Sometimes, I will say–people who know me can figure these things out. I small, and walk away.
The age thing has always been irritating. I have always looked younger than my real age, which has only recently been kind of fun. I am 52. I have no gray hair and a head full of brownish blond hair. Yesterday, a client told me she thought I was in my 30′s, and then a store clerk asked me, upon purchasing wine, if I were 21. Had to show her my driver’s license. Made my day, sort of. And, it’s just weird. I enjoy the other questions better as folks try to tell me which party or church they think I belong to, and why.
September 3rd, 2012 at 11:53 am
I love your approach Bob. I might try using questions like that as a counter.
What’s the most interesting back-pedal you’ve ever gotten from that?
September 3rd, 2012 at 10:09 am
I actually tend not to lie too much. Mostly because I have a terrible memory and lying really well requires you to remember what you told who when and at what time. Considering I have trouble remembering what I had for lunch yesterday…tends not to work so well.
plus, the truth is often so much more devastating… :D
That said, while I do think honesty is the best policy, if you have to lie for a good reason then….Lie! Lie your little ass off!!!
September 3rd, 2012 at 11:55 am
You’re right about lying being a lot of work. The real tragedy here is that I was a great liar. I was really good at lying when I ws younger, before my vows. I understood why I needed to take the vows I took and I focused on total honesty as one of my main interpretations of them. But in a way I felt like a talent had gone to waste :) Maybe I should’ve been Rogue Attorney instead.
September 3rd, 2012 at 1:16 pm
well, as much as they aren’t always liked, tricksters are sometimes needed. almost as much as heroes ;)
September 3rd, 2012 at 6:02 pm
And I think the two are not mutually exclusive. One of my students at the temple was once really taken with the idea of organizing a faux “cattle raid” between Celtic polytheist organizations. I started listing some ways we could cheat to win with trickery, without technically breaking the rules. She looked horrified. I told her, “If the only advice a druid gives is to attack head on, guess what? The warriors will never need to consult you.” She ended up liking the plan.
September 3rd, 2012 at 9:20 pm
lol, nice
September 11th, 2012 at 10:54 am
Yup. Its not surprising that most heroes have cunning, which is a fancy way of saying that they are tricky.
Love the cattle raid thing, I’d love to join in on that ^_^
September 3rd, 2012 at 10:46 am
I don’t know if it really even matters, but if it matters to YOU, then it does. ;) People are going to judge you anyway. They’ll think you’re cocky, or a dink, or lying, or awesome, or amazing, or supercool. None of it is true in the end- you are simply you, doing what you are doing, as they are them, doing what they are doing. The part of us that is so (grossly) human puts far too much weight on what Other People Think, in general. We are okay if the people around us think we are okay, because if we passed their judgements then we MUST be fine. It’s all crap, and none of it really matters. Unless—- it does. :) But only til it doesn’t anymore.
We’re so fluid and changeable. :)
September 3rd, 2012 at 11:56 am
Hey, the part were you said I’ms supercool is totally true!
But excellent point, Nicki. Thank you.
September 11th, 2012 at 11:34 am
Right on the noggin. It is surprisingly easy to fall into the whole, “what do other people think of me?’ spiel.
Unfortunately that sort of thing matters a lot in remote communities. Trying to do business while rumors are abound of some sort of scandal or other makes it really hard to make ends meet. It doesn’t mean you should change your behaviour or lie, but it still has very influential impacts – which goes into the reign of politics, of which I detest but see the need for its presence to organize and mobilize on a macro scale.
Politics and Government being based on how the majority of people see things, it is important to have the skills to navigate that and encourage what is the ‘best’ direction. Whatever that may be and sometimes, if not most times, there isn’t a best choice – a very hard job that I have to admit some respect to. Especially those who have the honor to be honest through the whole process and not take the easy way of conforming to what the mob thinks you should be to then just do otherwise in response to how you truly feel. At that point politics is broken. People vote based on how they see things and if what they are seeing is false, then there is little point to it. So your message about people are going to judge you anyway and you shouldn’t care has two faces to that coin in politics. Politicians shouldn’t care about what people think when running for the job so people actually get what they vote for, they should care what people think once they’re on the job, because they are now representing the people. Tis the dilemma.
September 3rd, 2012 at 2:38 pm
I occasionally tell lies to protect my privacy: the test here is that if they found out the truth, they ought to understand. For instance, what did I do over the weekend? “Oh, nothing…” Not very heroic, though.
I also tell lies that are not intended to be believed, though this might not count as lying. For instance, you can tell folks your sign is some constellation that’s not even on the ecliptic.
September 3rd, 2012 at 6:04 pm
Lol, I love your answer about your sign.
I don’t know that it’s unheroic to conceal your activities. There is something to be said for assuming a veneer of “normalcy” and/or not boasting about your crazy adventures.
September 3rd, 2012 at 5:06 pm
I actually find it a challenge to see what I can get people to believe without directly lying to them. Knowing people will make assumptions, I do what I can to lead those assumptions astray. It’s fun! But then, there was always a lot of the trickster about me.
I routinely pretend to be whatever age I think will benefit me the most :)
September 3rd, 2012 at 6:04 pm
You rock, Shanna.
September 4th, 2012 at 12:01 am
I wouldn’t want to raise a child, not that I’d want to raise a child anyway but still it’s the principle of the thing, in a world where even one person never lied at least once. That would be a world more morally repugnant than I could possibly imagine, and I can imagine a lot.
Besides, Rule One: The Gods Lie
September 4th, 2012 at 12:40 pm
Fascinating Dave. Why wouldn’t you like a world like that? And, personal preference aside, how would it possibly be “morally” bad if no one lied? Forgive me, but I can’t make sense of that.
I’d love to hear more of your thoughts. This is one of the most striking answers I’ve gotten.
Not the gods I offer to. Though even if they did, to paraphrase a Vodou friend, “Just because the gods do it doesn’t mean we’re supposed to.”
September 4th, 2012 at 4:40 pm
“Just because the gods do it doesn’t mean we’re supposed to.”
Let me tell you a story.
My grandfather was born sometime between 1898 and 1914. His mother died when he was very young, flu epidemic and all that, and his father subsequently abandoned him. Naturally my grandfather did the morally responsible thing and lied through this teeth (about his age) to get a job in a factory.
His whole life and career was based upon lying about who he was. If he hadn’t done that he and his brother might never have left the orphanage before it burned down. If he hadn’t gotten the job he did in the factory, rather than a more age appropriate job, he might never have learned the trade that kept him from being drafted into war. My grandfather lied and his life was better. His brother’s life was better. My life exists because of his lie. Entire families were born and rose up out of poverty and thrived because he lied.
Unequivocally, explicitly lied.
How many people would have never been born if nobody lied? How many people would have died prematurely?
Am I saying that lying is never wrong? Of course not. I’m merely arguing that, all else being equal, we live in a world where it’s necessary to lie. Image a world where no war was ever won, no peace ever negotiated, no crime ever solved.
Even hurt feelings are an important consideration if you take into account the unintended consequences. People will forget what you did, and forget what you said, but they will never forget how you made them feel. If human society is based upon our ability to work together effectively, to cooperate, we need to be able to lie to protect each other. Image a world in which social trust is so completely eroded that not even a tribe could ever stabilize. Human civilization would be nothing more than anarchy, running around doing whatever we wanted and trusting no one.
Because really who wants to follow laws, if they’re being honest? If we all wanted to do the right thing all the time we’d have no need for laws. If we can’t lie to others, we can’t lie to ourselves. I’m not arguing humans are inherently immoral or evil, I believe humans are inherently morally good. But we need help in order to learn how to become morally excellent.
For that matter, who gets to decide what constitutes a lie and what constitutes the truth? Is fiction a lie? If so you better stop working on that novel. And in a world without lying there would be no distinction between lies and truth telling. No deception, no discernment. And no trust. If we had no reason not to trust people we wouldn’t need trust at all. People need to be able to lie, that the gods lie too just proves you don’t have to always tell the truth to be morally excellent, not that you should abandon the truth entirely.
September 4th, 2012 at 4:49 pm
I feel I should point out I’m having a bit of fun with you in the latter portion of my post to make my point. Can’t be too careful about being taken literally on the internet and all!
September 5th, 2012 at 1:04 pm
Haha, yes I gathered that. I’m really enjoying this discussion actually. My response is also meant in good humor and friendly exchange.
September 5th, 2012 at 1:03 pm
Thanks for the response Dave.
I’m really happy your grandfather was able to get the job he did, happy he survived and helped his family, and I can understand why he did what he did.
But what about the other story – what about the story of the guy who didn’t?
How many jobs were available at the factory? They must have been in demand. When your grandfather lied and got that spot, what other man – perhaps an adult, perhaps someone actually qualified for the gig – didn’t get the job? Did they find another spot elsewhere, or did they struggle? Did they have a family of their own, who – like your grandfather’s brother – depended on them to survive?
I’m not saying your grandfather did anything evil. Maybe I would have done the same thing. But where we diverge is this:
Given that he lied to steal something that other people needed too, and put his own family first ahead of others, I think we could say: he did the smart thing, he did the practical thing, he did the necessary thing. But morally responsible? No, he made a smart selfish choice with no regard for other families. He did what he had to, to survive.
When we have to make hard choices to survive, we will rationalize almost anything. We are least likely to make a moral decision at that moment. In far more desperate circumstances, this is when people justify cannibalism, murder, or casting off the life boat before it’s full.
I think imagining a world without lies is difficult. You give many examples of times people are backed into a corner and have to lie to escape injustice. But how many of those injustices wouldn’t be there in the first place if everyone was being honest with each other – even politicians, capitalists and authorities?
As for fiction, no, of course fiction is not lying. I was going to mention this in my original reply to you and took it out, thinking it was not necessary to say :)
September 6th, 2012 at 12:01 am
“When we have to make hard choices to survive, we will rationalize almost anything.”
It’s not just the hard choices that we rationalize. And of course we can swap stories about what could or should happen all day. But let me ask you this, how do you, specifically, tell right from wrong? As thoughtful as you clearly are I’d doubt that you’re playing it by ear. So tell me, what’s your system? How do you know what you should do?
“…no, of course fiction is not lying.”
Obviously. But I think we both know that was part of the aforementioned fun having. :)
“But how many of those injustices wouldn’t be there in the first place if everyone was being honest with each other”
I can’t answer that question because, in all honesty, I have no idea. You seem fairly certain honesty is overwhelmingly preferable to dishonesty and I’m not sure why that is. Now, don’t get me wrong, I see the moral appeal certainly. No, what I’m curious about is why you seem to be so sure we’d all be better off with nothing but the truth. Enlighten me.
And in full disclosure I don’t really believe that a world without lying would necessarily be a bad place to live. I’m not certain enough about what it would be like to say for sure.
That’s part of the fun though eh? :)
September 8th, 2012 at 11:37 am
That’s fair Dave. Most of the time when people make this argument – that lying is OK sometimes – I feel it is more from a sense of self interest or moral laziness. In other words, they sometimes lie to make their life easier so they are going to say it’s ethical even when it really doesn’t seem like it. But in your case it seems much more thoughtful, and I appreciate that.
First off, I want to make sure we’re not conflating “honesty” with “harshness.” Some people think being honest means being blunt and harsh all the time and I don’t buy that. Honest truth can be tempered with politeness and respect and thus doesn’t need to cause hurt feels carte blanche.
But to your actual question, morality is about social cohesion and cooperation. That depends 100% on trust. Without honesty, trust stops working. We can often see ways to get a temporary gain by concealing the truth or lying. But over the long line of our lives, and across the breadth of society, honesty is what gives us true friendships, reliable contracts, loving partners and an accurate sense of what is okay and not okay. All elements of our society, from commerce to police authority to government to helping out a neighbor, depend on trust: yes you’ll pay me, no the police won’t illegally beat me, if we pass this law it will be followed, you won’t ask me for money after you volunteered to help me paint my fence as a friendly gesture.
To the extent that we introduce dishonesty into system, all of these institutions degrade and this is why we have a sense of morality in the first place.
Tough question Dave. These days it is largely by a knack or instinct from having lived by my vows so long. When I first took my vows it often required a lot of reflection and meditation. I also made use of personal rules a lot back then, whereas now I don’t have strict rules so much as an ingrained sense of how to act. Some things I find the hardest are:
When is it okay to use sparing language to avoid fully disclosing something? This is not a lie but an omission. Sometimes it’s fair to omit, other times it is manipulative. When is it okay?
Is the way that I’m about to make money ethical?
Is how I’m treating this person alright? They accept what I say or do, but am I respecting what they really feel? Am I treating them with dignity, as an equal?
This person is being dishonest or dickish to me. How am I supposed to manage this?
These are tough moments. As general rules, I don’t lie, don’t seek revenge, don’t act vindictively, offer what I have when someone needs it, treat people with respect even when I don’t like them, and pass up chances to get what I want if it will hurt the other person.
If I leave someone feeling hurt, it should only be because of something unintentional (a mistake I have to correct) or out of my hands (they are hurt for reasons I cannot control). That is the hardest part: managing the day to day, the personal relationships, and always putting respect and honesty first. If I can manage that then I feel I am ethical.
There are also bigger philosophical issues, but those are where you just have to pick a side and stick to it.
September 4th, 2012 at 8:32 pm
[...] Two Lies I Will Always Tell « Rogue Priest [...]
September 9th, 2012 at 12:26 am
Hmm. I have several thought’s to add.
My first thought was that it sounds less like you are Lying than that you are Telling Stories. The Fiction you and Dave discussed. Contributing to your myth about yourself. Creating characters in a novel version of The Great Adventure. That could be interesting, and it could make your life easier if feeling judged is too hard at the end of the day, but that seems like a Lesser Adventure.
If you confessed to lying to get out of a dangerous situation we would probably all (well, mostly) stand up and say, “Yeah! Good for you! Glad you’re safe!” But to avoid being judged? Dude. You’ve just pre-judged the person asking the question based on someone else’s actions and shut down the possibility of authentic, transformational conversation.
So, tell me again why you set out on this Great Adventure?
You set out to meet The Gods. How do you know they’re not the ones asking your age or your sign?
Are you really satisfied with messing with people while you wait for The Gods to show up?
That said, I try to be honest and truthful, and don’t always succeed. So I have no moral high ground. But you asked.
On another note, Martha’s story about her mom reminded me of a story. My great aunt, Auntie Kay, died in her late 90′s and was a legend in our family. She ran away to Hollywood as a young woman to Be Discovered (and never was, but she WENT), was widowed fairly young and went to work at a couture dress shop until she was forced to retire at 65. She went to the high-end department store a few blocks away, lied about her age and worked for another 10 years.
One day someone asked Auntie Kay how old she was. She leaned over conspiratorially and asked, “Can you keep a secret?”
“Oh, yes,” the person replied.
“So can I,” Auntie Kay said, and walked away.
;-)
September 10th, 2012 at 10:52 am
Haha, I love Auntie Kay. Thanks for your other words on this subject too, Susan. Food for thought and I take them seriously.
September 10th, 2012 at 11:06 am
I knew you would, or I would not have given them. XO.
September 10th, 2012 at 1:05 pm
I love Auntie Kay’s response.
Also, I think this falls under the category of “none of your damn business.” People are so rude.
If it doesn’t bother you to lie about these two things, Drew, then lie about them. If it bothers you, then avoid the question.
People are so RUDE.
September 10th, 2012 at 8:23 pm
Bahahaha. Good policy.
September 11th, 2012 at 10:39 am
lol, that last line about your novella was quite distracting from the point of your post.
I stand firm that it is okay to lie if it means protecting someone. For me, I don’t care much about how other people conduct themselves, so long as no one is getting hurt. If they want to lie, whatever. I don’t much like being lied to as I see no harm from the truth, in fact I see more good to come of it. As I come across folks who lie based on conforming to what society expects of them, and lying only perpetuates the problem, whatever it may be. But if that’s the way they want to about it, the consequences are they’re own problem, not mine.
I like to be honest about everything, but I don’t like making people uncomfortable. Which can quickly and easily happen with me as I can talk about any subject comfortably, to the detriment of those within earshot. Like the one time while hanging out with classmates, it got late night enough that porn came up on the TV and the topic of positions came up. What I found interesting is a common complaint among one gender that their partners weren’t fond of one particular position that they all enjoyed. Being of the other gender in reference I then pointed out that I personally really enjoy that placement and my significant other got cheers and congrats for their good fortune. I left being confused as to why such a thing was uncommon and that maybe people need to communicate and let loose a bit more. And yet I still consider myself vanilla in my tastes. So, being honest in that case made the whole thing a lot more fun that it would have otherwise.
When it comes to age, most people assume I am closer to their age when without child in hand. Being between 17 and 35. I know this because whenever someone asks my age, I force them go guess to get the answer. I often get a good laugh as only a couple of people got it right and that was only due to knowing me for a long while already. It makes for good conversation starters in my view.
For the sign thing. I don’t think that has ever come up with me. I don’t think that sort of thing is common around here. I don’t know anyone who takes it seriously either, unless they are private about. If I was asked, I’d likely say something along the lines of, “what sign? You mean my artist signature?” because by then I would have forgotten again what, “what’s your sign?” means. Which would be funny to have them explain what it does mean, because, like you said, it means nothing.
September 21st, 2012 at 10:50 pm
I have one routine lie that I haven’t told in at least almost four years (since before I met my husband). In a bar, on the dance floor, if anyone asks my name, “Sarah,’ is the answer. I don’t need to ever be found by anyone trying to meet me in a bar.
Other than that, I agree with your initial statement, “In fact, I’m one of those people who believes lying is always wrong—even white lies, even making other people feel better, even minor excuses like saying you’re busy instead of ‘I’d rather not come.’”
I’m sort of intrigued by these routine lies. A) your honesty in sharing them, and B) the fact that you’re choosing to lie about these specific things seems based on what other people perceive of the truth. I haven’t taken you for a man who pays much attention to such arbitrary information.
I’m subscribe to the belief that what other people think of me is none of my business. However, my lifestyle does not depend heavily on the friendliness and generosity of strangers.
I hope you’ll write more as you use these lies. What insight comes of it?
Blessed be.
Meg
September 25th, 2012 at 11:55 am
A few people have had that reaction, and I hadn’t thought of it that way. I thought of it as a sort of disinformation campaign – a defensive act to foil annoying behavior. But that’s rather combative, which isn’t usually my style.
In truth I’ve ended up not using these lies much since writing that post. More often I just do the “How old do you think I am?” that someone suggested above, or “Old enough.” So maybe this post should actually be titles “Two Lies a Couple o’ Times Told.”
September 25th, 2012 at 2:37 pm
LOL How interesting that writing about the lies removed them from typical use!
November 9th, 2012 at 3:50 am
This post inspired another blog post Drew! The second time you have done this to me lad!
http://setkenblog.blogspot.com.au/2012/11/vows-lies-and-authenticity.html
November 9th, 2012 at 1:45 pm
Hehe that makes me feel like I did something right :)
Thanks for linking this, Setken. I’m checking it out now.